Not All Polytheists

28 Mar

This past weekend I noticed a thread on tumblr circulating about a new post over on Gods & Radicals about extreme-Right politics and it’s appearance in Paganism/polytheism. When I first saw the thread, I skimmed through the post, shrugged my shoulders and moved on. To me, there wasn’t anything particularly earth-shattering written in said post. It discusses some of the hallmarks of authoritarianism, and how it can manifest in people’s ideals, and then goes over some people and groups that have been shown to have these ideals and/or purport them. It then discusses how the New Right might be influencing certain groups, which groups are possibly more at risk than others, and then discusses some ways to (possibly) combat Fascism in our communities.

I don’t know that I agree with all aspects of the post and I don’t know that I would have written about the topic in the same way, but there was nothing that was particularly interesting in said post to me so I closed my browser and moved on. (ETA: There has been an update to the original post called “The Uncomfortable Mirror”)

But then I realized that everyone seemed to be in a huff over this post. Some people are calling to boycott G&R. Some people want to even boycott people who support G&R. I was so confused by the backlash that I had to go and read the post again. And again. And again. And then I had to ask some other people to read the post as well because I honestly couldn’t see what the big deal is. The only problematic thing I could find was that HUAR was listed as a resource when it’s been proven to be a problematic place in the past.

I then logged into WP and found that several people have also written responses to this post (links at the bottom), and only through reading those posts have I begun to get an idea of why everyone is so worked up. To put it very succinctly, the overall reason why people are upset is basically this: “How dare you lump People Like Me in with people like that!” With a hint of “hierarchies are not always bad” and “quit mixing your politics with my religion”.

That’s it. That’s all it seems to come down to. Here are a few snippets to highlight this if you don’t feel like reading the posts in their entirety:

This article associates many of our most meaningful and vibrant traditions with some of the most vile ideologies lurking at the edges of our community. It’s no wonder many Pagans and polytheists who have read this piece are upset. (Beckett)

It’s also not ok to claim that those who do not automatically share political ideology in common with those particular individual religions are somehow flirting with some form of light fascism—this is a silencing tactic. Given the current climate of anger and fear (both in the US and abroad), it’s a powerful silencing tactic. And it’s wrong, devastatingly wrong. It’s a wrong thing to do to associate others with different political or economic ideologies with vile things such as racism, sexism, and totalitarianism, and a destruction of diversity. (Dawson)

I guess my point here is that I too am concerned about right-wing influences creeping into devotional polytheism, but the way that Gods & Radicals has chosen to express this sentiment is extremely problematic. Making sweeping statements like the one I quoted above will only serve to alienate those devotional polytheists who, like me, side with the Left. (Marian)

Now I can sorta get where people are coming from. It’s frustrating when you feel like you and your co-religionists are not really a Thing, and someone is claiming that you are all this Thing. Trust me when I say that I know exactly how that feels as it is a very constant problem over on Tumblr. It can be frustrating and invalidating, especially if you are trying very hard not to endorse or be the Thing that someone is saying or insinuating you are participating in. This is further compounded by the possibility that someone could read the list on the original post and ignore the disclaimer, and instantly assume that everyone in that group is Bad News (which would encompass nearly every part of the Pagan/polytheist community, since the groups listed pretty much includes all of us in some way or another).

However, if you are so put out by the notion that other people in your religion and/or community are not exactly like you, and may not be supporting the best of ideals, then that is an issue and you really need to look closer at your religious community. Every group has problematic members. Every single one. Quite honestly, I consider the list that was placed in the G&R post a little useless, because nearly every. single. religious community has problematic people- including those who are very right leaning. Even in cases where a religion is set up to be equality-driven and very left leaning (such as Kemeticism and Shinto), you’ll find folks who manage to skew it to serve more extreme agendas and needs. Hell, even the cultures who practiced these religions had a tendency of doing so. You can find ways to make any religion be extremist, and/or extremely damaging to its people.

The more responses to the G&R post that I read, the more I felt like I was trapped in a #notallmen discussion, or even an #allivesmatter discussion. That is to say, it felt like people were blatantly missing the point because they were too wrapped up in their personal discomfort to even consider if the points being raised were valid or useful. If all you got from the article is “how dare you lump me in with them”, I feel like you’re missing the point. I get that some people believe that their religious category or community shouldn’t be lumped in with Fascism (this seems to be especially true of those who are from the Devotional Polytheist group/community), but the truth still remains that every group has problems and we should be having discussions on how to combat these problems. Even if you haven’t seen the problematic members, that doesn’t mean that they aren’t there or that they don’t exist. I feel that when someone is raising concerns about a community or group, the answer isn’t to put your hands up and say “don’t look at me!” because you don’t think you’re part of the problem. This is such an important conversation to have, and it’s all of our responsibilities to keep our communities safe, and to make them unwelcome to people who are hurtful to other community members.

I had made a post a few years ago about how branding is everything, and I feel that it’s relevant and apt for this conversation. If your community has shitty people in it, even if they’re fringe, give them enough time and they will begin to effect whether people want to join your religious community or not. We can’t combat these issues and problems by sticking our fingers in our ears and screaming “that’s not me, quit lumping my group in with that other group that has nothing to do with me” because eventually that fringe group can and will become too loud to ignore, which in turn means that they will eventually become your problem, too (as can be seen in US politics right now). The act of calling attention to problematic behaviours and trends within the larger community is not the same as saying everyone in the community is bad. We need to learn to understand that calling attention to a problem (even if the wording or method leaves some of us wanting), and stating that there is a problem isn’t the same as saying that everyone is problematic. Just like with women raising awareness about how sexism makes them uncomfortable around men doesn’t inherently mean that all men are horrible. Just like when the black community says that black lives matter doesn’t necessarily or even inherently mean that other lives don’t matter either.


Now don’t get me wrong, as I said above I don’t necessarily agree with all aspects of the G&R post (the wording isn’t the best, I don’t think that the list of possible vulnerable groups was useful because we’re all vulnerable in some way or another, the inability to comment and discuss on the page is not helpful and can give the wrong idea about the nature of the post, and the lack of author, date, etc. is confusing and frustrating), and quite frankly I find that this article does a much better job at explaining how modern authoritarianism takes form and how otherwise ordinary people can turn towards authoritarianism under certain circumstances. It also goes over what people who tend to learn towards authoritarianism tend to look for in ideologies (whether political or religious, hint: reconstructionism would be a huge draw to authoritarianism types based off of the findings in this article). I also don’t necessarily disagree with every point raised in the counter posts that I pulled quotes from above (f’ex: I don’t find hierarchies inherently bad, depending on how they’re used, which was a concern raised by Beckett. I agree that the wording in the listing wasn’t the best, and the disclaimers might not be enough in some situations). The truth is that I’m rather ambivalent about the G&R post all together, and I thought it was common knowledge that we’ve got problematic people in every community (hence my confusion at why people are so worked up). However, I still can’t agree with the idea that the G&R post is entirely out of line simply based off of the notion of “how dare you lump me in with them.” We can’t fix the problems we won’t acknowledge. We can’t acknowledge problems if we can’t get past our own discomfort long enough to even consider that there is a problem. And we can’t fix the problems we acknowledge if we don’t actively work against said problems.

It’s everyone’s responsibility to help make our communities safe for everyone, and if we’re all too busy going “that’s not me, don’t lump me in with them” instead of discussing how to actually deal with the problem at hand, how on earth are we going to get anywhere? Instead of wasting time going back and forth on “who is really the Fascist here because it’s not me”, how about we focus on ways to get crappy people or ideologies out of our communities so that more people can safely enjoy the religions that we all support and love?

Relevant Posts:


Posted by on March 28, 2016 in Kemeticism, Rambles, Uncategorized


Tags: , , , ,

14 responses to “Not All Polytheists

  1. R Cawkwell

    March 28, 2016 at 3:34 pm

    Oh what a delight! I thought I was the only one who’d read and re-read trying to make sense of the outrage. I agree, the list isn’t helpful and some of the wording is awkward but I thought the ‘New Right’ explanation page was stating the obvious. There are some extremely dodgy people around who might think polytheism is the perfect cover for their ideas. Did you read the article about Augustus Invictus? I’d never heard of him until then, but he seems like just the questionable sort the ‘controversial’ page was discussing, rather than saying ‘all polytheist are fascists’, which seems to be the message some people have taken from it.

    • von186

      March 28, 2016 at 5:15 pm

      I believe I had seen the link when I saw the post over on tumblr, but I don’t believe I read it. I’m guessing that it’s worth taking a look at?

      • R Cawkwell

        March 28, 2016 at 7:13 pm

        Oh yes, it is quite interesting.

  2. G. B. Marian

    March 28, 2016 at 5:04 pm

    I totally acknowledge the fact that there are bad people in every religious grouping, including devotional polytheism. I also don’t disagree with anything you’ve stated here.

    • von186

      March 28, 2016 at 5:18 pm

      Yours and Coldalbion’s posts were the more even-keeled out of everything I had seen this weekend. I found a lot more issue with Dawson’s and Beckett’s post than yours, but I wanted to include yours so that people could see a variety of different takes on it (only reason I didn’t pull a quote from Coldalbion’s is that they came from a completely different angle than everyone else). Hopefully it doesn’t seem like I’m singling you out or saying your points are invalid or wrong, as that wasn’t my intention. If I screwed up in that regard, I do apologize.

      All in all, I could probably sum all of my thoughts up as “no one is particularly wrong for being frustrated with the G&R post, but I wish we were spending more time discussing how to handle the problematic ppl in our various communities, and less time on wondering/worrying why our particular religious path made it onto the list” if you get what I mean.

      • G. B. Marian

        March 29, 2016 at 4:21 am

        You don’t have to apologize for anything. Your reaction to all of this is the most sensible one I’ve seen so far. You’re right; it’s very sad that so many of us – myself included – have been directing so much of our energy toward dissecting G&R’s original post than we are toward addressing its relevant points. There is still something about it that really irks me, but you are absolutely right.

  3. smarmychristopagan

    March 28, 2016 at 5:19 pm

    this is 100% what i’ve been thinking lately re: the little “schism” currently going on with ‘tumblr kemetics’. when you’re accused of something serious and harmful to others, your first priority needs to be do look at *your* actions and behavior to try and fix whatever is leading to those accusations, not to desperately try to distance yourself from the accusation. like, obviously, sometimes the person accusing you is wrong or out of line, but allowing yourself the knee-jerk reactions of defensiveness and…well….whining not only doesn’t fix the problem, it keeps people from being able to have helpful conversations about things that need to be fixed.

    this is like, sj 101: no one is perfect. you’re gonna make mistakes. you’re gonna get called out. handle it gracefully.

  4. Shadowed Wolf

    March 29, 2016 at 5:02 am

    Reblogged this on The Woods of My Heart.

  5. aediculaantinoi

    March 30, 2016 at 4:10 pm

    My question is: what if we’ve been doing this all along? What if it has been a particular group’s constant concern to make sure that anyone who wants to be in the group (so long as they are not disruptive or disrespectful to our religious commitments) is not marginalized for any reason based on race, gender, disability status, economic status, appearance, sexual orientation, etc., and our disapproval of those who would discriminate has been vocal throughout our existence? (And no, I’m not saying we’re perfect, or that we haven’t had problems previously or won’t have them in the future; but this active effort has been longstanding for us, and isn’t going to cease anytime soon…and needed no prompting from people outside of our traditions to get going.)

    And yet, because we have the words “polytheism” and “reconstructionist” in our group description, now people who aren’t familiar with us, but who are looking for buzz-words that may indicate fascist tendencies, might lump us in with such people based on the information given there.

    My group does not regulate the practices of other polytheist groups; sure, we may have opinions on many of them, but we can’t very well call for their exclusion from polytheism. (The same could easily be done to us for a billion reasons–we’re syncretists, we are queer, etc….and yet poorly-informed people have personally called me a “Nazi fundamentalist” as well despite all of the info I mentioned being public knowledge and easily available to anyone who would care to look.) We have options where our own group is concerned when problematic individuals appear, certainly; but beyond that, what else is there?

    So, what concerns me is not so much “how dare you lump us in with them” as it is that based on this misinformation, now other people might lump us in with others in ways that are incorrect. It happens frequently enough with my group (though in relation to matters other than fascism–e.g. an assumption that we’re only for gay men, when in fact that is not the majority of our membership, etc.) that we’re misunderstood based on a very surface and poorly informed understanding; now it might happen again based on this. If all of our energies become diverted toward saying “This group/person is out there, and they’re a fascist/racist/homophobe/transphobe/etc.–we don’t like them, and have nothing to do with them” (and, let’s face it, that could be a full-time job!), then what will be left for building and practicing our actual tradition?

    • von186

      April 5, 2016 at 6:39 pm

      I think its great that your group has been actively working to ensure that your members are good and don’t discriminate against other members. That’s really hard to find and more groups should be aiming for this. As for the concerns you have, all I can really say is that there isn’t a clear cut answer or solution that really comes to mind. I think its something that all of us are going to have to contend with on some level. Hell, the Heathens already have to deal with people assuming that all Heathens are racist, but they still seem to manage, and I think that all of us will, too.

      Having circulated around a fair amount of groups with bad press, I think that most people eventually learn more and come around to understanding what a group is or isn’t (this happened once some of us started to work on dispelling misinformation about KO), and those who aren’t willing to go learn before assuming a group is necessarily flawed or bad (aka fascist, in this situation), then you probably don’t want them in your group anyways. To some extent, we all need to be more responsible about educating ourselves about the groups we’re in, the people we rub elbows with, etc. It’s a good skill for newbs to learn, and so I’d like to hope that newbs who are interested won’t read one G&R post and assume anyone with that label is bad (the only exception I can think of this is folkish Heathenry.It’s the only label I’ve seen that more or less means racist in any format it’s being used. Recon isn’t this way, though).

      It’s a tough balance btwn trying to get rid of misinformation and building traditions. I think that putting a good face forward always helps as does being transparent- as both helps to combat any misinformation floating around on the internet (which is the largest issue for KO- its hard to find the correct information unless you’re a member, and does them a disservice, imo). That’s also why I have been told to promote more information for ascertaining whether a group is good or not, what to keep an eye out for in terms of bad behaviour, manipulative tactics, etc. Along with promoting resources for learning about racism, sexism, etc. We can’t combat what we don’t understand. We can’t learn if we’re not given the opportunity. So these are some of the things that I’m doing to help others learn and be able to take the steps needed to educate themselves, whether it be about Kemeticism, racism, fascism, groups, etc. It may not be for everyone, though it seems to be working in my neck of the woods.

      So yeah, idk how much this helps or doesn’t. The situation is sort of what it is, so this is more me rambling than necessarily giving ideas to fix the current situation (because I don’t really think it can be fixed in its current state). I still get where some people are coming from, worrying about ppl assuming they’re a bad group because of a post, but like I said in my post above, I’m used to this sort of vibe over on tumblr, and I’m used to it to an extent through KO. So I’ve learned not to let that get to me, because I know I’m doing the best I can to not be a shitbag, and by extension, doing what I can to ensure our community doesn’t turn to crap, either. So for me, it’s like “yeah, there are problematic people. I’ll even pointt hem out to you. Despite that, its not all bad, there are good people here, too” and I move on with my life.

      So, uh, yeah…. I guess have my ramblings at you haha.

  6. smarmychristopagan

    April 5, 2016 at 9:13 am

    Reblogged this on Ethical Chaos.

  7. ockletycockletywitch

    April 6, 2016 at 7:31 pm

    So refreshing to read such a thoughtful response to the article in question. I thought just what you have said (although far less eloquently) but didn’t quite know where to say so! Thank you!


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